Recently I had a chance to interview John Berardi. When it comes to using sound nutrition to help get the body and level of health you want I doubt there is anyone more knowledgeable than JB. Applying John's nutritional strategies with a consistent workout routine helped me lose 143 pounds of fat in 15 months…

Just click play to listen

Or if you prefer, here's a transcript of the interview:

Chris McCombs (CM): This is Chris McCombs from SoCalWorkout.com and I am here with Dr. John Berardi of JohnBerardi.com and PrecisionNutrition.com. When it comes to nutrition there is no one more knowledgeable and passionate than John Berardi. His principles are solid and the bottom line is that they work. When I was 359 pounds, overweight, I used John's principles to get to a lean and strong 216, all the while getting strong. As many of you know, this can be no easy task.

John, how are you?

John Berardi (JB): I'm doing great today and it's always great to hear stories like yours with massive weight loss. But more than just talking about fat and weight being lost, yours is really a story of transformation inside and out. I mean, you changed the way you think, the way you live, the way you do business, everything. And so sometimes when people see before and after pictures or hear weight loss stories, to them sort of being a bit naive, it's just about losing weight. But as you've proven and as I've seen time and time again it's about more than that. Sure, the weight does come off. Sure, it's supposed to come off. Sure, we want it to come off. But there's a whole bunch of other baggage that people carry around that we'd like them to lose too.

CM: I agree. And it's hard to feel good if you're not eating the good foods and it's just amazing how much different I feel from changing that over.

JB: Oh, yeah.

CM: Can you tell people a little bit about who you are and what you do?

JB: Certainly. Well my background, I have a couple different lines of academic research and practical, real world consulting. I've got a Master's in Exercise Physiology and a PhD in the area of Exercise and Nutritional Biochemistry. And so my research all along has looked at the interaction between exercise and nutrition. So research wise I've looked at whether exercise changes nutrient needs. I've also looked at how nutrition can impact health, impact exercise, impact sports performance, etc.

And I've been fortunate all throughout my Master's training, all throughout my PhD training I had the opportunity to apply these principles every day with real world people. I mean, I put myself through university as a trainer, and then when I got to the Master's and PhD levels I was brought on with a lot of elite sports teams, Olympic teams, professional teams, NCAA teams in the U.S., looking specifically at how we could help optimize their function and do what I talk about in terms of increasing or improving body composition, improving health, and improving performance.

And nowadays I split my time up between Austin, TX where I'm a faculty member at theUniversity of Texas, and
Toronto, Ontario where I consult with a lot of Canadian Olympic sports teams. And I just kick back and forth and do a little bit on the academic side, do a little bit on the consulting side, and the most people can find me at my web home at JohnBerardi.com and PrecisionNutrition.com. And really the PrecisionNutrition.com is the hub of everything we do now because there I'm the director of nutrition. And basically Precision Nutrition the world's largest knowledge base of nutrition information. We have over 65,000 posts on there. We've got a whole bunch of different topics and threads and resources for people. Right now we've got about 19,000 members and it grows by about 1500 to 2000 a month so it's just this really dynamic place where although you might not live in Austin, TX or Toronto, Ontario, you might not be able to come visit with me and my staff, you're definitely able to participate in the community of what we're doing right online at PrecisionNutrition.com.

CM: So anyone listening, I want to say check out PrecisionNutrition.com because that site is awesome. When it comes to getting people into shape, John, how important is eating right?

JB: Well in terms of breaking it down in terms of eating right versus exercise, it's hard to assign percentages. And I've heard people say things like, "Nutrition is 80 percent of the battle," or 90 percent or 50 percent, or whatever. And I say that nutrition and exercise are both 100 percent. And the reason why I say that, or an analogy that I use for that is this. If someone were to come up to me and ask me, "What's more important to life, the heart or the lungs?" I'd think they were crazy, right? Both of them are absolutely essential to stay alive, okay? There is no "which one should I do, work on my heart, work on my lungs?"

Same exact thing with fitness. You cant' just train. You can't just eat right and expect to achieve the outcome of optimal body comp, optimal health, optimal performance and feeling good. So there is no "what percentage is what?" They're both important. They're both 100 percent important and they're both contingent upon the other. So again, I'm pretty sure to make my answers pretty clear in this regard. You can't live without the heart. You can't live with the lungs. You can't live without exercise and you can't live without eating right.

CM: Very well said. What are the seven habits of highly effective nutrition?

JB: Well over the years I became a big fan of Dr. Steven Covey's principles in his book "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People." And when I was thinking of ways to share my nutrition principles I thought what a simple and great way to cover nutrition so why not just come up with my own seven habits or principles? And make them easy, make them practical, make them applied, make them things people can do right away, today, to get better.

And so the habits, they basically break down like this. The first five — and I'll probably only cover the first five today as a little bit of a teaser, but mostly because the first five are really fundamentally the food principles. The rest are lifestyle principles and we can talk about them separately.

So the first one is eat every two to four hours no matter what. People are comfortable with this type of recommendation nowadays. They hear it very often, the concept of grazing throughout the day, of having meals and snacks, or frequent small meals versus just the two or three big meals that is the typical western diet type of approach. So that's the first habit, eating every two to three hours, two to four hours, whatever it is. But it's just to make sure to break that down over the course of the day.

The next thing — and the next few govern what to eat at each of those meals. So we know eating every two to four hours, now what do we put on our plate? Well the first thing is a lean, complete protein source. Protein is absolutely critical for increasing the metabolism. It's critical for saving lean mass or muscle mass as we age. It's critical for a whole bunch of physiological processes and the fact is, when you look at most people's feeding patterns, they're either not getting enough total protein each day or they're getting too much protein in a single meal or two and not enough spread out throughout the day. So the key is to ensure that you're getting lean, complete protein with every meal, every two to three hours.

So most people may have some protein for breakfast, may have some for lunch and may have some for dinner, when in fact I've seen a lot of people who have none for breakfast, none for lunch, and a bit for dinner. But there's a whole bunch of different patterns we can look at. However the idea here is that breakfast, lunch, dinner, and all the snacks in between should have a complete protein source. And usually we talk about doses or amounts, it's a pretty simple rule. For women it's a protein portion the size of their palm; one portion the size of their palm every time they eat every two to three hours. For men, it's two portions the size of their palm; so basically two palms worth for men and again, every two to three hours, every time they eat.

Now the third one that I want to cover is vegetables and fruits. Now we all know all the value of vegetables and fruits. We all know how good they are for us and all this, but the truth is when you look at the North American diet, those in the U.S., look at those in Canada, we find that 98 percent — 98 out of 100 people do not even get three servings a day of fruits and vegetables. Now that's absolutely ridiculous. I mean, the recommendation for good health, and it's proven over and over again with research studies, is that we should be getting between seven and ten servings a day, closer to ten. And if you're an athlete, if you're highly physically active, it should maybe be 12 to 15. So if you look at what people are actually doing, less than three servings a day, they are far away from this. And the reality is they just don't know how to fit them into their plan and they don't have the right approach to eating vegetables and fruits.

Here's the right approach. Every time you eat, you include one to two servings of fruits and vegetables. Now people usually, their wheels get turning and they think, "How am I going to do this? How do I get vegetables for breakfast?" Well you just throw them into an omelet. "How do I get them in snacks?" Well that's easy too, cut up peppers, cut up carrots, any type of raw cut up veggies. Lunch is easy, salad or steamed or whatever.

And again, if you just approach the idea of having vegetables every time you eat, either raw or cooked or salad or steamed, heck, I even have a recipe for mashed cauliflower that tastes just like mashed potatoes. You just use that as another vegetable serving with your meals. And again, some people ask me, "Do I have to have vegetables with every meal?" Well the answer is no, but the idea is that if you're going to try to get ten servings a day and you don't have vegetables with breakfast and you don't have vegetables with lunch, you better fill up a gigantic bucket at dinner time because you've got a lot of vegetables to eat. So certainly you can avoid your veggies throughout the rest of the day and have ten servings at dinner, but it's a little silly to do and the reality is you're not going to do it.

So again, sort of recapping the habits so far, there's eat every two to four hours. There's make sure you put protein, lean, complete protein on your plate every two to three hours or four hours. Your veggies, they're going to come in every time you eat protein every two to four hours.

Then the next one is good fats. And that habit is basically eat complete, good fats every day. Now good fats in my mind are things like mixed nuts, olive oil, flaxseed oil, flaxseed, fish oil, these types of healthy fats low in saturated fat that provide a whole bunch of heart healthy benefits, brain benefits, all sorts of other things. So the idea here is every day you should be getting some of these foods, things like mixed nuts, avocados, olive oil, flaxseed, flaxseed oil, fish oil, these types of things. So every day you can include them in your diet.

Then the last habit of the food habits is basically a carbohydrate habit. And the simple way that I say it is you've got to earn your bread. And the idea behind this is tat for most people — and again, this is one of the most powerful body transformation, body comp changing strategies I've ever used. And it's that if you have some fat to lose, or you just want to shift your ratio of lean to fat mass, you don't really want to lose weight but you just want to change your composition, what you should do is you should save your high carbohydrate, high starch foods until after you've exercised. So simply put, if you haven't exercised, you put down the pasta, the rice, the bread, all these types of foods. Bagels, muffins, all that stuff. If you have exercised, try and choose a better type of carbohydrate and then eat it within one to two hours of exercise.

So those are the five major food based rules. And one thing that I have my beginning clients do is I have them carry around a little question check sheet. And the question check sheet basically just asks them these following questions and makes sure that they ask them to themselves every time they eat.

So the first on is, has it been two to three hours since my last meal? If so, I'd better start planning my next meal and find that food.

The next question is, where is my lean protein source? So every time you put something in your mouth you've got to ask yourself, "Where is my lean protein source?" If you don't know where it is, you can't find it, you've got to get it.

The next thing is, where is my vegetable? Does this meal have a vegetable in it? If not, you've got to get it.

The next thing is, where is my good fat? Am I including good fat here? If not, again, the meal is missing something.

And the last thing is, did I just work out? And if the answer is yes, then you can include a starchy or a higher carbohydrate food. If the answer is no, then just stick with what you've already put on your plate, your protein, your veggies, and your good fats.

So those are the major habits that I really think are very important, and simply put, those people who have success consistently with their body, with their performance and with their health, do these things.

CM: Everybody listening, I would do those things. They worked wonders for me and many other people I know. John, how badly can one or two "cheat days" a week screw up a person's results? I know a lot of people who eat really well Monday through Friday afternoon and then Friday night through Sunday they just go balls out. How bad is that messing up their results?

JB: Well it really all depends. There's no pre-packaged, wrapped up, concise answer for that because it really all depends. If you are really, really low-carb and strict during the week, then a cheat meal or a cheat day on the weekend probably doesn't hurt you too badly. However, if you're just what I call "clean" eating, so making the good choices that we just discussed a minute or two ago, and then you go hog-wild on the weekend, it definitely can have some negative repercussions.

In the end, body transformation or body composition improvement has to do with a couple things. Number one, making sure you eat the right amount of calories. Number two, making sure you eat the right food. And number three, making sure you eat the right food at the right times. And the first one, the calorie one, that doesn't mean we have to count calories, but it does mean that if by the end of the week you've over-consumed calories above and beyond what your body needs, you're going to store a bunch of fat.

And the thing is, when people treat their nutrition, or their nutritional lifestyle, as this big, depraved type of thing during the week and then on the weekend it's like, "I'm a free person again," and they just eat whatever they want, they usually will over-consume for that day by thousands of calories. And I've seen people do cheat days on the weekend where they consume 8000 and 10,000 calories in a day. Now their metabolic needs may only be 2500 so they've overeaten by five times. That will add up.

So I guess the simple answer is it certainly makes a difference. And then the question becomes, what's the solution? Well number one, I find that most people who overeat like that on the weekend usually do so because they feel deprived during the week and feel hungry all the time during the week. There's no need for that unless you're in a very, very strict fat loss phase which you should only be in for short periods of the year. You shouldn't feel hungry all the time. You shouldn't feel deprived all the time. Usually people get into this position because they associate guilt with eating a good amount of food. They make really bland, plain foods because they think that's what healthy eating is. Couldn't be further from the truth.

I mean, when we have people who purchase Precision Nutrition, who buy our cookbook "Gourmet Nutrition," they find that they can eat really tasty stuff that's also good for them. So the deprivation goes away. So that's the biggest reason anyway why people usually get to the weekends and just eat and eat and eat. It's because during the week they were so energy reduced and feeling deprived because of their own personal choices that when it comes to the weekend they feel like, "Okay, now I can have my cheat," and the cheat become a 48-hour orgy of high fat, high sugar foods.

The second major reason why people do this is because they haven't experimented much with food taste, food variety. A lot of my clients now, even if I give them a weekend cheat, they don't overeat substantially because they just go out for different foods than normal, not for pig outs. And that's a really important distinction.

For example, if you go out for Indian food or Thai food or something like that, that's a substantial change from maybe your normal week of healthy eating. So it feels like you get a break from the same foods everyday, but you don't have to pig out. And you don't have to eat junk food to get a break from the same normal foods every day. You can just eat tasty, different things and doing that usually helps a ton of people get away from the counterproductive cheats and really adopt this whole lifestyle of always making good food decisions without deprivation and without healthy eating being this sort of Spartan type eating regimen.

CM: What would you say to people who really struggle to eat properly?

JB: Well I'm someone who not only works with clients, I'm also someone who works with trainers and nutrition coaches. And what I usually teach them is to look for limiting factors. And I also teach this to my clients and athletes, but the is that not everyone has the same challenges.

For example, let's say I'm working with a client who wants to build muscle, okay? And this client just simply isn't making progress. They're doing a great job in the gym, let's say, but they're not necessarily making any progress. So if I look at their food intake I might find that they're not eating enough and that's why they're not building muscles. Well the next question that comes up is, what is their limiting factor? And the limiting factors can be varied.

For one individual it might be that they're just not hungry. So I can tell them, "Eat more. Eat more. Eat more." They feel like they're eating a whole lot because they're always full, but they're not eating enough to grow because their stomach is telling them to stop before they can eat enough to grow. That might be one limiting factor.

Another limiting factor might be this. I often do a kitchen makeover with my clients so one of my Precision Nutrition teams goes to their house, does a complete kitchen makeover, takes them grocery shopping, the whole deal. Now when we go to some of these clients' houses, we'll find that they just don't have anything in their fridge. So their limiting factor isn't fullness, and it's not that they don't eat enough, that's just the symptom. The limiting factor is that they simply don't have food in their fridge or in their house. How are you supposed to eat well if you don't have healthy food in your house? Or you don't have any food in your house?

So when people have difficulty eating well it's not necessarily that eating is the problem or food is the problem. There may be some other limiting factor and that limiting factor may be a) they don't know how to prepare tasty, healthy foods so they just give up on the whole process; b) they don't ever have food prepared when it's time to eat so they make a poor decision. It might be one of a number of things. So what our job is as trainers, coaches, whatever, is to find out what a person's limiting factor is and help them eliminate it.

And so ways of eliminating it might be hiring a food prep service. So if you simply don't have the food available, you hire a food prep service. The next thing might be you've got to grocery shop every Sunday. Every Sunday you make a list for what you're going to need for the week. You get it. You put it in your house. Another strategy might be pre-cooking for the week, where you pre-chop all your veggies and pre-cook for the week. Again, every person is going to have a different limiting factor and the idea is to isolate that factor, and it's usually one or two steps behind what your real reasoning that you tell people is. And you eliminate that factor so that it can all come together.

CM: How important is mindset when it comes to eating a healthy diet?

JB: Well mindset is critical. I've actually recently been working with a group of experts — and the self-help industry is huge right now and every self-help guru out there has a theory as to why people don't succeed in life, in business, in weight loss, etc. But I've had the good fortune of working with a company that since the 70's has studies over 3 million people and success. Predominantly they work with corporate executives, they work with human resource departments in companies, and they work with elite athletes. And they have a series of assessments to look at these athletes, these corporate executives, these people that being hired through human resources departments, and their assessments look at personality dynamics and motivations. And the reason why all these companies and these sports teams want to test their athletes and want to test their employees is to figure out if they're a good fit or if they have what it takes to succeed.

And the interesting thing that we've come up with in our working with this company — because we're working with them on the health side, so what are the key variables in people making body transformations? We found that there are three variables that are really important for success. One is competitiveness. And competitiveness doesn't just mean that I want to beat other people. Often people are competitive with themselves. They have certain milestones and markers that they compete with and they just want to do better. They want to compete for excellence, either personally or against others. Competitiveness is one of the top three things that in over 3 million people define success. And when I say "define success," I mean that in these assessments, when they find these three variables, they find that 85 percent of people achieve the success that they're after. So again, one is competitiveness.

Number two is discipline. And then number three is one of the other very critical ones that sort of define this 85 percent success rate. Number three is sort of a personal sense of pride and of personal self-worth. So we're looking at competitiveness, self-worth, and we're looking at discipline. Of all the different characteristics, these are the top three and you'll understand that these three are mental variables. These things are characteristics and motivations that drive people to success.

So obviously, when we talk about eating well, success in body transformation, you've got to have all three. And the interesting thing is this. I've seen people succeed who don't possess all three but enlist the support of a strong social support circle in which others possess those characteristics too. So the thing is, you might be someone with really strong sense of self-worth and good discipline, but no competitiveness. So does that mean you're doomed to fail? No. Because if you have a strong social support circle where some are strong where you are weak, they can help carry you through it.

And social support is an absolutely critical variable as well, and that's in fact why we have PrecisionNutrition.com in the knowledge base, because it creates a social support circle of over 19,000 people worldwide all in it together, all with different strengths and weaknesses, all helping each other succeed.

CM: For the person who eats like total crap right now, what steps can he or she take today to start making some positive changes?

JB: Well the steps that they can take today are the habits that we talked about before. It's the eating every two to four hours, the complete protein, the saving the carbs until after exercise, the vegetables, the good fats. These are things you can start with your next meal.

What are the questions again? Has it been two to three hours since I last ate? Where is my protein? Where is my vegetable? Did I work out? If not, I'm going to put the carb down. And again, carbs are breads, oatmeals, pastas, rices, potatoes, all of that. Where is my good fat? You can ask yourself these questions during your next meal and then figure them out and get them working.

Now some people will say, "I don't now what a good fat is," or "I don't know what a lean protein is," and that would actually be a good question. I've spent my life studying nutrition so I know these things very well. People who have changed their bodies learn this stuff as well. So you may not know these things. Well you can do an internet search on protein sources, good fat sources, carbohydrate sources, and you can get that information for free. Or you can purchase Precision Nutrition. We've got charts of all the different proteins, all the different fats, all the different carbs, how they slot in, which ones are good, which ones are bad, which ones should be eaten when. Either way, again, that's something you can do right away. figure out what a protein, carb, and fat is and then follow the rules, as yourself the questions.

The next thing would be — and this you can do yourself or you can have someone help with, it would be clean out your kitchen. Purge your kitchen of all the crap that's not supposed to be there. And I've heard every excuse in the book. "Well my kids like that food." Well, you're going to feed your kids the crap that you won't even put into your body? I don't know if that's good parenting. Or "my husband" or "my wife" or my whoever else lives in the house likes to keep that stuff in the house. Well, get rid of it. Give them other alternatives. The only reason they like that stuff is because they habitually eat it. You can change their habits too.

There are a lot of excuses people have, but in the end you will be most successful if you clear out the foods you shouldn't be eating and fill your house with the foods that you should. So get the protein list. Get the carb list. Get the fat list. Buy those foods, put them in your house, and it's easy because whenever you're hungry you'll grab one of those foods. And the chances are, it's going to be a good one because there are no other bad foods around.

So again, follow the habits. Clean out that kitchen of all the stuff that's not supposed to be there. Take it down a local food supply, food bank, whatever. Donate it. Just get it out of your house. And the next thing would be to go shopping and fill your house with the good foods. If you house is full of good foods, has no bad foods and is following the rules I talked about, you're guaranteed to succeed.

CM: What would you say to people who feel they just don't have enough time to eat properly?

JB: Well I will say that when it comes to anything in life you're either trading time or money. So when it comes to eating well, first of all I don't really understand the excuse "I don't have time" because you have time to eat, don't you? Everyone has time to eat. They make time to eat. If you don't have time to eat, you've got time to die because you're not eating at all. So you've got to have time to eat. It doesn't take any more time to eat healthy. All it takes is a little bit of planning in advance. And again, we've talked about some of those strategies here. Precision Nutrition has got another ton of those strategies.

So if you don't have time, you're lying to me. You tell me you don't have time, you're absolutely lying because there's a hundred different ways to do it plus you eat and feed yourself every single day. It's not hard to get a healthy meal out on the go. It's not hard to make your own healthy meal. And these are the two ways people eat, they either order food out or they eat at home. And both scenarios you can just replace the bad food with the good foods.

The next thing is you can obviously trade time for money. So if you simply feel like you don't have the time to cook or don't want to cook, then you can hire a meal prep service. They're in every major city right now. They are getting better and better all the time. So you just pay someone to cook your food for you and drop it off, then it's really, really simple and you don't have to worry about it. So the whole "I don't have time to cook well," "I don't have time to eat well," that's just an excuse. It's an excuse because you don't want to get it done. And those people that want to get it done, they're the ones who change and they figure out ways.

And we've got ways. I encourage people to pick up Precision Nutrition. We've got all those strategies outlined and I shared some of them today. If after reading them you still say you don't have time, then it's not that you don't have time, it's just that you don't want to do it.

CM: I feel your Precision Nutrition program is by far the best nutrition program out there and I wholeheartedly recommend it to everyone I know. Can you tell us a little more about your program?

JB: Yeah, certainly. Precision Nutrition actually started from interesting beginnings. Basically back in 2001 I was hired by the Canadian National Cross Country Ski team to help them improve their nutrition education.

Now most people that are non-athletes feel like they have to do completely different things than athletes because athletes must eat well because they're so good at their sport. But the interesting thing is, historically in sports, and this is pro sport, NCAA sport, Olympic sports, athletes have eaten just as badly as everyone else. And it's no surprise to anyone that's worked in sports that athletes often come in, whether they're 16 or 26 or 36, eating just like everyone else around them. Because you've got to remember, they weren't raised to eat any differently than anyone else in the population. We are all taught nutrition from the same sources, our parents, our friends, the media, etc. So the way every person listening to this interview eats is the way every athlete has been trained to eat as well.

So you go in — and this was a surprise to me when I first started working with elite athletes. I figured they'd know a little more than they do. And so the interesting challenge in sports has been to educate these athletes quickly and efficiently to do what you yourself did, which is change the way you eat, change your lifestyle, and make a big difference, and in your case lose a lot of weight.

So with this Canadian Cross Country Ski team, we were challenged to come up with a nutrition education plan that would get the athletes on board and help them make the change. And so we created this program in 2001 and we implemented it over the next few years. And we had amazing success with it. We had an 85 percent adherence rate, which means 85 percent of all the athletes that we worked with did the program. And then we saw up to five years later they were still doing the program so we knew that it really resonated with them. They decided that this was something they could do and then they followed it for the long haul. So it was really impressive for us and then we rolled this program out with a lot of athletes and currently it's been used in at least 15 different Olympic, pro, and NCAA teams.

And the interesting thing was we were getting all this feedback for the next few years about the program, things like "my sister or my brother or my cousin or my mom saw the program laying around, started following it, got great results too. You guys should really market this to the public." So we decided it was about time to do that so we launched Precision Nutrition for everyone because, again, Precision Nutrition for years was just for our teams and team education training.

So we launched it back in 2005, and ever since it's exploded. Like I said, we've got 19,000 members of Precision Nutrition now. We're growing by about 1500 or 2000 a month. So it's really catching on. The idea behind it all is nutrition education and nutrition strategies for success, cutting through all the stuff that's out there, telling you exactly what works, giving you all the information, and then giving you a social support circle so that you can have people around you who can support you throughout the process.

So when people buy Precision Nutrition they get five manuals, they get our cookbook, they get audio and video content. But they also get our online knowledge base which is basically this huge community of people all pulling together to accomplish similar goals, so looking better, feeling better, and performing better. It's really a great place and I'm proud that it's something that I'm responsible for.

CM: John, I'm extremely grateful for you to be on this call with us today and I really want to say thank you. Can you tell us again where people can go to learn about you and Precision Nutrition?

JB: Yes, certainly. Anyone who's listening in who's interested in finding out more about what we do, about Precision Nutrition, about our products and services, just come to PrecisionNutrition.com. And when you get there you can read a little bit about us, a little bit about what we do, and definitely check out our free knowledge base. It's basically our Precision Nutrition forum and as a non-customer you can sort of just browse around and see what it's all about. But once you do actually buy Precision Nutrition, join the community, you get in on all the online resources. We've got calorie calculators. We've got exercise databases with over 500 exercise video demonstrations. It's really, really a rich resource.

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